Oxford railway station revamp hits buffers as lengthy discussions go on

thisisoxfordshire: County council leader Ian Hudspeth County council leader Ian Hudspeth

PLANS for Oxford’s new railway station have still not been agreed, with council bosses concerned it will be a “functional ticket office” instead of “a great gateway”.

Last year, the Office of Rail Regulation approved Network Rail’s scheme to redevelop the station by 2019.

But it is now 13 months since it appointed architectural consultants Aedas to draw up a masterplan for the station and surrounding area.

The company had previously indicated that this would be completed towards the end of last year.

Oxfordshire County Council, Network Rail, Oxford City Council and First Great Western have been among the bodies thrashing out what form the station’s redevelopment should take.

However, county council leader Ian Hudspeth said he was pushing for a more ambitious plan than he had seen outlined so far.

Mr Hudspeth said: “Network Rail effectively are looking at a functional ticket office but we and the city council want something that’s in keeping with Oxfordshire.

“We want it to be seen as a great gateway into Oxford.

“The main things for us are whether you are going to be able to see into Frideswide Square when you arrive.

“Are there going to be good retail facilities? Will we have a fully- integrated bus terminus there?

thisisoxfordshire:

  • The existing station

“Network Rail obviously have a budget, but we are asking them to be a bit more flexible.”The station’s redevelopment will see the Botley Road bridge replaced and an extra platform build ahead of a Chiltern Railways link to London Marylebone from 2016.

City council leader Bob Price, below, said the number of bodies involved had made the process slower.

He said: “There are a lot of different demands on the site.

“There are a lot of hotel operators who are keen on having a space there, there is a desire on the part of the Said Business School to expand and there is the need from Network Rail to have a good car park.

thisisoxfordshire:

“We are getting very close to some kind of public announcement but when you bring together the group of different interests in the scheme things can take a long time.”

Network Rail spokesman Anne-Marie Batson declined to comment on whether plans for the scheme were originally intended to be unveiled last year.

She said: “The parties involved in the redevelopment of Oxford's station and the surrounding area are still in the early stages of negotiation as to the actual design.

“In other parts of the country, notably Reading and Birmingham, Network Rail has formed close partnerships with train operators and local authorities when renovating stations.

“We strive at all times to create stations which are destinations in themselves as well as reflecting the best of their local environment, and this will be our goal in Oxford.”

First Great Western, which runs the station, said large projects generally take a long time to agree but that it supports Mr Hudspeth’s plans.

Spokesman James Davis said: “We are still in the early stages of this significant project, and things are progressing well.

“First Great Western, Network Rail and Oxfordshire County Council are working together with the city council in support of building a great gateway to Oxford.

“We are keen to provide a greater customer experience and capacity at the station.”

The Said Business School did not respond to a request to comment on its plans.

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Comments (31)

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9:27am Tue 27 May 14

Sophia says...

Seems everyone gets to have a say, except the people who live round there
Seems everyone gets to have a say, except the people who live round there Sophia
  • Score: 10

12:31pm Tue 27 May 14

King Joke says...

Let's face it, if you live near a station the chances are you will have to hear trains and see the passengers making their way to and from the station. You could always sell up and buy a house a long way from a station, and pocket a massive wedge represented by the premium a station confers on property.

Hudspeth is normally switched on about transport matters so I'm surprised at his stance on this issue - the plans I've seen are ambitious enough, with a Reading-style transfer deck over four (yes four) through platforms with a full retail offering, and a proper western entrance at long last. Yes it would be nice to have a station like York or Newcastle but the site is always going to be constrained.
Let's face it, if you live near a station the chances are you will have to hear trains and see the passengers making their way to and from the station. You could always sell up and buy a house a long way from a station, and pocket a massive wedge represented by the premium a station confers on property. Hudspeth is normally switched on about transport matters so I'm surprised at his stance on this issue - the plans I've seen are ambitious enough, with a Reading-style transfer deck over four (yes four) through platforms with a full retail offering, and a proper western entrance at long last. Yes it would be nice to have a station like York or Newcastle but the site is always going to be constrained. King Joke
  • Score: 5

12:57pm Tue 27 May 14

EMBOX2 says...

As usual it will be a design by committee, and it will end up being a dogs dinner. This is what Oxford always gets. All you need is one person with foresight and the ability to get everyone onboard (pun intended).

I bet we end up with a sprawling mess, no bus interconnection, and even more traffic chaos at Frideswides Sq - not to mention OCC spending tons of cash on a new traffic system to replace the one they're about to start work on soon...
As usual it will be a design by committee, and it will end up being a dogs dinner. This is what Oxford always gets. All you need is one person with foresight and the ability to get everyone onboard (pun intended). I bet we end up with a sprawling mess, no bus interconnection, and even more traffic chaos at Frideswides Sq - not to mention OCC spending tons of cash on a new traffic system to replace the one they're about to start work on soon... EMBOX2
  • Score: 4

1:19pm Tue 27 May 14

Andrew:Oxford says...

Sophia wrote:
Seems everyone gets to have a say, except the people who live round there
Oh don't worry. They will have their say - as will every lobbying "Activist" in Oxford (who tend to live their lives in perpetual fear).

Whilst the County Council have clearly promulgated their number one priority in this article - a nice view of Frideswide Square...

For genuine rail users these are probably the most important elements:-

At least 4 through platforms & 2 bay platforms.
Capacity to deal with 2000 passengers arriving simultaneously and switching mode to car, cycle, pedestrian or local transport in the peak
Up & down escalators, stairs and lift to every platform.
M&S Simply Food
ATM x 2
Ticket Machines x 10

"Future proofing" with capacity for 2 underground/adjacent 4-car light rail / subway / tram platforms would be wise too.
[quote][p][bold]Sophia[/bold] wrote: Seems everyone gets to have a say, except the people who live round there[/p][/quote]Oh don't worry. They will have their say - as will every lobbying "Activist" in Oxford (who tend to live their lives in perpetual fear). Whilst the County Council have clearly promulgated their number one priority in this article - a nice view of Frideswide Square... For genuine rail users these are probably the most important elements:- At least 4 through platforms & 2 bay platforms. Capacity to deal with 2000 passengers arriving simultaneously and switching mode to car, cycle, pedestrian or local transport in the peak Up & down escalators, stairs and lift to every platform. M&S Simply Food ATM x 2 Ticket Machines x 10 "Future proofing" with capacity for 2 underground/adjacent 4-car light rail / subway / tram platforms would be wise too. Andrew:Oxford
  • Score: 6

1:20pm Tue 27 May 14

King Joke says...

The project will be NR-led, just like Reading. Reading has none of the things you list, in fact they've built a new bus interchange on the north side.

I do agree though that changes need to designed passively into the Frideswide Sq revamp, so they don't need to re-engineer it a couple of years after it's been done. This is especially important as the new railway bridge will be wider and the underpass deeper - so the ramp will have to start further east than it does now. I wonder if Hudspeth is playing hard-ball to get more £ out of NR to re-design Frideswide Sq??
The project will be NR-led, just like Reading. Reading has none of the things you list, in fact they've built a new bus interchange on the north side. I do agree though that changes need to designed passively into the Frideswide Sq revamp, so they don't need to re-engineer it a couple of years after it's been done. This is especially important as the new railway bridge will be wider and the underpass deeper - so the ramp will have to start further east than it does now. I wonder if Hudspeth is playing hard-ball to get more £ out of NR to re-design Frideswide Sq?? King Joke
  • Score: 4

1:27pm Tue 27 May 14

King Joke says...

Andrew:Oxford wrote:
Sophia wrote:
Seems everyone gets to have a say, except the people who live round there
Oh don't worry. They will have their say - as will every lobbying "Activist" in Oxford (who tend to live their lives in perpetual fear).

Whilst the County Council have clearly promulgated their number one priority in this article - a nice view of Frideswide Square...

For genuine rail users these are probably the most important elements:-

At least 4 through platforms & 2 bay platforms.
Capacity to deal with 2000 passengers arriving simultaneously and switching mode to car, cycle, pedestrian or local transport in the peak
Up & down escalators, stairs and lift to every platform.
M&S Simply Food
ATM x 2
Ticket Machines x 10

"Future proofing" with capacity for 2 underground/adjacent 4-car light rail / subway / tram platforms would be wise too.
Agreed, plus Oxford is going to become a major interchange station as well as an origin/destination. THe transfer deck and escalators will have to handle interchange movements as well as funnelling people towards exits. Changing passengers will also need to somewhere to sit, shop, eat and drink for let's say up to 60 mins while awaiting a connection, preferably within view of a departure screen at all times.

It's quite a tall order for such a constrained site!
[quote][p][bold]Andrew:Oxford[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Sophia[/bold] wrote: Seems everyone gets to have a say, except the people who live round there[/p][/quote]Oh don't worry. They will have their say - as will every lobbying "Activist" in Oxford (who tend to live their lives in perpetual fear). Whilst the County Council have clearly promulgated their number one priority in this article - a nice view of Frideswide Square... For genuine rail users these are probably the most important elements:- At least 4 through platforms & 2 bay platforms. Capacity to deal with 2000 passengers arriving simultaneously and switching mode to car, cycle, pedestrian or local transport in the peak Up & down escalators, stairs and lift to every platform. M&S Simply Food ATM x 2 Ticket Machines x 10 "Future proofing" with capacity for 2 underground/adjacent 4-car light rail / subway / tram platforms would be wise too.[/p][/quote]Agreed, plus Oxford is going to become a major interchange station as well as an origin/destination. THe transfer deck and escalators will have to handle interchange movements as well as funnelling people towards exits. Changing passengers will also need to somewhere to sit, shop, eat and drink for let's say up to 60 mins while awaiting a connection, preferably within view of a departure screen at all times. It's quite a tall order for such a constrained site! King Joke
  • Score: 6

2:02pm Tue 27 May 14

Dilligaf2010 says...

What's being built at the back of the long stay car park?
What's being built at the back of the long stay car park? Dilligaf2010
  • Score: 0

2:29pm Tue 27 May 14

mytaxes says...

Dilligaf2010 wrote:
What's being built at the back of the long stay car park?
Student accommodation off Mill Street.
[quote][p][bold]Dilligaf2010[/bold] wrote: What's being built at the back of the long stay car park?[/p][/quote]Student accommodation off Mill Street. mytaxes
  • Score: 1

4:36pm Tue 27 May 14

Isawyoucoming says...

mytaxes wrote:
Dilligaf2010 wrote:
What's being built at the back of the long stay car park?
Student accommodation off Mill Street.
Student accommodation well that makes a change.
[quote][p][bold]mytaxes[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dilligaf2010[/bold] wrote: What's being built at the back of the long stay car park?[/p][/quote]Student accommodation off Mill Street.[/p][/quote]Student accommodation well that makes a change. Isawyoucoming
  • Score: 1

5:45pm Tue 27 May 14

Patrick, Devon says...

King Joke wrote:
Let's face it, if you live near a station the chances are you will have to hear trains and see the passengers making their way to and from the station. You could always sell up and buy a house a long way from a station, and pocket a massive wedge represented by the premium a station confers on property.

Hudspeth is normally switched on about transport matters so I'm surprised at his stance on this issue - the plans I've seen are ambitious enough, with a Reading-style transfer deck over four (yes four) through platforms with a full retail offering, and a proper western entrance at long last. Yes it would be nice to have a station like York or Newcastle but the site is always going to be constrained.
Where have you seen the plans KJ? NR published a basic plan some years ago showing 4 long platforms with crossovers on the middle ones - effectively 6 through platforms

I agree with Andrew that it needs to be future proofed with space for light rail - more important than terminating bay platforms - given that most services will be through ones.
[quote][p][bold]King Joke[/bold] wrote: Let's face it, if you live near a station the chances are you will have to hear trains and see the passengers making their way to and from the station. You could always sell up and buy a house a long way from a station, and pocket a massive wedge represented by the premium a station confers on property. Hudspeth is normally switched on about transport matters so I'm surprised at his stance on this issue - the plans I've seen are ambitious enough, with a Reading-style transfer deck over four (yes four) through platforms with a full retail offering, and a proper western entrance at long last. Yes it would be nice to have a station like York or Newcastle but the site is always going to be constrained.[/p][/quote]Where have you seen the plans KJ? NR published a basic plan some years ago showing 4 long platforms with crossovers on the middle ones - effectively 6 through platforms I agree with Andrew that it needs to be future proofed with space for light rail - more important than terminating bay platforms - given that most services will be through ones. Patrick, Devon
  • Score: 1

6:39pm Tue 27 May 14

King Joke says...

There are more recent plans than that, not widely available yet. There will be six through lines, with the four 'outer' ones around two island platforms and the two 'inner' ones as freight lines. In addition will be the two bays for Marylebone services which will be terminating here.

THe exact locations of the crossovers etc I can't remember.

THe basic layout of the station of the station is settled, but the following are not:
- Architectural design of the station
- Location of car, bus and taxi facilities
- Layout of Frideswide Square to accommodate the deeper underpass and hence longer approach

My hunch is that Hudspeth and County officers are working behind the scenes to agree who designs these 'tbc' items and who pays for them!
There are more recent plans than that, not widely available yet. There will be six through lines, with the four 'outer' ones around two island platforms and the two 'inner' ones as freight lines. In addition will be the two bays for Marylebone services which will be terminating here. THe exact locations of the crossovers etc I can't remember. THe basic layout of the station of the station is settled, but the following are not: - Architectural design of the station - Location of car, bus and taxi facilities - Layout of Frideswide Square to accommodate the deeper underpass and hence longer approach My hunch is that Hudspeth and County officers are working behind the scenes to agree who designs these 'tbc' items and who pays for them! King Joke
  • Score: 0

7:19pm Tue 27 May 14

Patrick, Devon says...

King Joke wrote:
There are more recent plans than that, not widely available yet. There will be six through lines, with the four 'outer' ones around two island platforms and the two 'inner' ones as freight lines. In addition will be the two bays for Marylebone services which will be terminating here.

THe exact locations of the crossovers etc I can't remember.

THe basic layout of the station of the station is settled, but the following are not:
- Architectural design of the station
- Location of car, bus and taxi facilities
- Layout of Frideswide Square to accommodate the deeper underpass and hence longer approach

My hunch is that Hudspeth and County officers are working behind the scenes to agree who designs these 'tbc' items and who pays for them!
So, basically NR have set out what they will provide - platforms, ticket office and footbridge, but it will be Local Authorities who must pay for the rest. No surprise there really.

In the late 60s BR wanted to redevelop the site with a 4 storey commercial development included, but the City Council (then a county borough/unitary) refused permission, so BR told them to get lost and provided a vary basic inadequate building - and only that because the old Victorian timber structure was rotting.

OCC needs to form a partnership with NR, as would happen anywhere else - eg Nottingham, and get a proper job done.
[quote][p][bold]King Joke[/bold] wrote: There are more recent plans than that, not widely available yet. There will be six through lines, with the four 'outer' ones around two island platforms and the two 'inner' ones as freight lines. In addition will be the two bays for Marylebone services which will be terminating here. THe exact locations of the crossovers etc I can't remember. THe basic layout of the station of the station is settled, but the following are not: - Architectural design of the station - Location of car, bus and taxi facilities - Layout of Frideswide Square to accommodate the deeper underpass and hence longer approach My hunch is that Hudspeth and County officers are working behind the scenes to agree who designs these 'tbc' items and who pays for them![/p][/quote]So, basically NR have set out what they will provide - platforms, ticket office and footbridge, but it will be Local Authorities who must pay for the rest. No surprise there really. In the late 60s BR wanted to redevelop the site with a 4 storey commercial development included, but the City Council (then a county borough/unitary) refused permission, so BR told them to get lost and provided a vary basic inadequate building - and only that because the old Victorian timber structure was rotting. OCC needs to form a partnership with NR, as would happen anywhere else - eg Nottingham, and get a proper job done. Patrick, Devon
  • Score: 1

8:16am Wed 28 May 14

King Joke says...

Nottingham's project was nowhere near the size of this one. They already had a decent station and they've spent a few mill tarting it up. Ours is going to be a mini-Reading except with a greater interchange demand. You're right that partnership is the way forward.
Nottingham's project was nowhere near the size of this one. They already had a decent station and they've spent a few mill tarting it up. Ours is going to be a mini-Reading except with a greater interchange demand. You're right that partnership is the way forward. King Joke
  • Score: 1

9:05am Wed 28 May 14

RTLKOE says...

Sophia wrote:
Seems everyone gets to have a say, except the people who live round there
Agreed. The station sits in a largely residential area (entirely so to the west of the station) and yet OCC wants to transform this small site into a 'great Gateway' with hotels and lots of retailers according to the above. The noise pollution and disruption to local residents should be a massive factor (but no doubt will not be properly considered by Hudspeth and OCC - which is a shame as they are supposed to represent local people).

King Joke - where then is the new station actually going to be? Where are all these new lines going? There isn't any room for half of it. No wonder the plans are taking forever.
[quote][p][bold]Sophia[/bold] wrote: Seems everyone gets to have a say, except the people who live round there[/p][/quote]Agreed. The station sits in a largely residential area (entirely so to the west of the station) and yet OCC wants to transform this small site into a 'great Gateway' with hotels and lots of retailers according to the above. The noise pollution and disruption to local residents should be a massive factor (but no doubt will not be properly considered by Hudspeth and OCC - which is a shame as they are supposed to represent local people). King Joke - where then is the new station actually going to be? Where are all these new lines going? There isn't any room for half of it. No wonder the plans are taking forever. RTLKOE
  • Score: 1

9:15am Wed 28 May 14

King Joke says...

THe station will be where it is now - the location to the south being on a curve and on a gradient, out of the question these days.

The new lines will be where they are now, and slightly to the west. I suspect the future of the YHA is in doubt, for this reason.

As for local residents, I can't imagine anyone would pay the massive premium of living next to the station unless they actually had an interest in catching trains? Passengers will be vastly better off with the much larger range of services available, and property will be even more astronomically expensive so anyone who doesn't like trains can sell up, move away and wallpaper their new house with £50 notes.

There will actually be less noise and pollution than there is now, as almost all passenger services will be electric.

The new train services are definitely coming, so we need to plan for accommodating them now, rather than the usual British muddle of trying to make-do-and-mend, and accommodate growth by stuffing a quart into an already-overflowing pint pot.
THe station will be where it is now - the location to the south being on a curve and on a gradient, out of the question these days. The new lines will be where they are now, and slightly to the west. I suspect the future of the YHA is in doubt, for this reason. As for local residents, I can't imagine anyone would pay the massive premium of living next to the station unless they actually had an interest in catching trains? Passengers will be vastly better off with the much larger range of services available, and property will be even more astronomically expensive so anyone who doesn't like trains can sell up, move away and wallpaper their new house with £50 notes. There will actually be less noise and pollution than there is now, as almost all passenger services will be electric. The new train services are definitely coming, so we need to plan for accommodating them now, rather than the usual British muddle of trying to make-do-and-mend, and accommodate growth by stuffing a quart into an already-overflowing pint pot. King Joke
  • Score: 3

9:40am Wed 28 May 14

RTLKOE says...

King Joke wrote:
THe station will be where it is now - the location to the south being on a curve and on a gradient, out of the question these days.

The new lines will be where they are now, and slightly to the west. I suspect the future of the YHA is in doubt, for this reason.

As for local residents, I can't imagine anyone would pay the massive premium of living next to the station unless they actually had an interest in catching trains? Passengers will be vastly better off with the much larger range of services available, and property will be even more astronomically expensive so anyone who doesn't like trains can sell up, move away and wallpaper their new house with £50 notes.

There will actually be less noise and pollution than there is now, as almost all passenger services will be electric.

The new train services are definitely coming, so we need to plan for accommodating them now, rather than the usual British muddle of trying to make-do-and-mend, and accommodate growth by stuffing a quart into an already-overflowing pint pot.
Surely can't be less noise pollution. What about all the loud speakers and general station noise?.. Where can they put in lines to the west - it is solid residential there?
[quote][p][bold]King Joke[/bold] wrote: THe station will be where it is now - the location to the south being on a curve and on a gradient, out of the question these days. The new lines will be where they are now, and slightly to the west. I suspect the future of the YHA is in doubt, for this reason. As for local residents, I can't imagine anyone would pay the massive premium of living next to the station unless they actually had an interest in catching trains? Passengers will be vastly better off with the much larger range of services available, and property will be even more astronomically expensive so anyone who doesn't like trains can sell up, move away and wallpaper their new house with £50 notes. There will actually be less noise and pollution than there is now, as almost all passenger services will be electric. The new train services are definitely coming, so we need to plan for accommodating them now, rather than the usual British muddle of trying to make-do-and-mend, and accommodate growth by stuffing a quart into an already-overflowing pint pot.[/p][/quote]Surely can't be less noise pollution. What about all the loud speakers and general station noise?.. Where can they put in lines to the west - it is solid residential there? RTLKOE
  • Score: 0

9:49am Wed 28 May 14

King Joke says...

There are station announcements now and they don't seem to bother anybody. With more solid station buildings there might actually be a bit less noise emanating outwards than there is now. At any rate most of the noise from a station comes from diesel trains, of which there will be fewer as most will be electric.

Yes there are residential areas to the west of the station, but in between there is the YHA and the western delivery area/car park, which historically was a railway line anyway, in the shape of a north-facing bay platform. It is here where the new lines and buildings will go.

Don't forget residents of the area, as well as benefiting from much better train services, will also benefit from a proper western entrance to the station, and a wider (in road terms) Botley Rd railway bridge with a proper pavement and cycle lane.
There are station announcements now and they don't seem to bother anybody. With more solid station buildings there might actually be a bit less noise emanating outwards than there is now. At any rate most of the noise from a station comes from diesel trains, of which there will be fewer as most will be electric. Yes there are residential areas to the west of the station, but in between there is the YHA and the western delivery area/car park, which historically was a railway line anyway, in the shape of a north-facing bay platform. It is here where the new lines and buildings will go. Don't forget residents of the area, as well as benefiting from much better train services, will also benefit from a proper western entrance to the station, and a wider (in road terms) Botley Rd railway bridge with a proper pavement and cycle lane. King Joke
  • Score: 2

9:10pm Wed 28 May 14

Citizen Sunday says...

RTLKOE wrote:
Sophia wrote:
Seems everyone gets to have a say, except the people who live round there
Agreed. The station sits in a largely residential area (entirely so to the west of the station) and yet OCC wants to transform this small site into a 'great Gateway' with hotels and lots of retailers according to the above. The noise pollution and disruption to local residents should be a massive factor (but no doubt will not be properly considered by Hudspeth and OCC - which is a shame as they are supposed to represent local people).

King Joke - where then is the new station actually going to be? Where are all these new lines going? There isn't any room for half of it. No wonder the plans are taking forever.
In this case, Ian Hudspeth and OCC *are* representing local people; putting in much needed infrastructure representative of the needs of the local people of the City of Oxford.
Oxford station and Frideswide Square *is* a 'Gateway' to the city center and should be treated as such.

To encourage sustainability, residentials should reflect the dynamics of its area- not the other way round.
[quote][p][bold]RTLKOE[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Sophia[/bold] wrote: Seems everyone gets to have a say, except the people who live round there[/p][/quote]Agreed. The station sits in a largely residential area (entirely so to the west of the station) and yet OCC wants to transform this small site into a 'great Gateway' with hotels and lots of retailers according to the above. The noise pollution and disruption to local residents should be a massive factor (but no doubt will not be properly considered by Hudspeth and OCC - which is a shame as they are supposed to represent local people). King Joke - where then is the new station actually going to be? Where are all these new lines going? There isn't any room for half of it. No wonder the plans are taking forever.[/p][/quote]In this case, Ian Hudspeth and OCC *are* representing local people; putting in much needed infrastructure representative of the needs of the local people of the City of Oxford. Oxford station and Frideswide Square *is* a 'Gateway' to the city center and should be treated as such. To encourage sustainability, residentials should reflect the dynamics of its area- not the other way round. Citizen Sunday
  • Score: 0

6:16am Thu 29 May 14

RTLKOE says...

Citizen Sunday wrote:
RTLKOE wrote:
Sophia wrote:
Seems everyone gets to have a say, except the people who live round there
Agreed. The station sits in a largely residential area (entirely so to the west of the station) and yet OCC wants to transform this small site into a 'great Gateway' with hotels and lots of retailers according to the above. The noise pollution and disruption to local residents should be a massive factor (but no doubt will not be properly considered by Hudspeth and OCC - which is a shame as they are supposed to represent local people).

King Joke - where then is the new station actually going to be? Where are all these new lines going? There isn't any room for half of it. No wonder the plans are taking forever.
In this case, Ian Hudspeth and OCC *are* representing local people; putting in much needed infrastructure representative of the needs of the local people of the City of Oxford.
Oxford station and Frideswide Square *is* a 'Gateway' to the city center and should be treated as such.

To encourage sustainability, residentials should reflect the dynamics of its area- not the other way round.
How about we see the plans before anyone starts congratulating anyone. Going on past performance this could be a disaster.
[quote][p][bold]Citizen Sunday[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]RTLKOE[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Sophia[/bold] wrote: Seems everyone gets to have a say, except the people who live round there[/p][/quote]Agreed. The station sits in a largely residential area (entirely so to the west of the station) and yet OCC wants to transform this small site into a 'great Gateway' with hotels and lots of retailers according to the above. The noise pollution and disruption to local residents should be a massive factor (but no doubt will not be properly considered by Hudspeth and OCC - which is a shame as they are supposed to represent local people). King Joke - where then is the new station actually going to be? Where are all these new lines going? There isn't any room for half of it. No wonder the plans are taking forever.[/p][/quote]In this case, Ian Hudspeth and OCC *are* representing local people; putting in much needed infrastructure representative of the needs of the local people of the City of Oxford. Oxford station and Frideswide Square *is* a 'Gateway' to the city center and should be treated as such. To encourage sustainability, residentials should reflect the dynamics of its area- not the other way round.[/p][/quote]How about we see the plans before anyone starts congratulating anyone. Going on past performance this could be a disaster. RTLKOE
  • Score: 0

12:19pm Thu 29 May 14

yabbadabbadoo256 says...

King Joke wrote:
Andrew:Oxford wrote:
Sophia wrote:
Seems everyone gets to have a say, except the people who live round there
Oh don't worry. They will have their say - as will every lobbying "Activist" in Oxford (who tend to live their lives in perpetual fear).

Whilst the County Council have clearly promulgated their number one priority in this article - a nice view of Frideswide Square...

For genuine rail users these are probably the most important elements:-

At least 4 through platforms & 2 bay platforms.
Capacity to deal with 2000 passengers arriving simultaneously and switching mode to car, cycle, pedestrian or local transport in the peak
Up & down escalators, stairs and lift to every platform.
M&S Simply Food
ATM x 2
Ticket Machines x 10

"Future proofing" with capacity for 2 underground/adjacent 4-car light rail / subway / tram platforms would be wise too.
Agreed, plus Oxford is going to become a major interchange station as well as an origin/destination. THe transfer deck and escalators will have to handle interchange movements as well as funnelling people towards exits. Changing passengers will also need to somewhere to sit, shop, eat and drink for let's say up to 60 mins while awaiting a connection, preferably within view of a departure screen at all times.

It's quite a tall order for such a constrained site!
Shame nobody thought about building a new station on the sidings at North Hinksey....
[quote][p][bold]King Joke[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Andrew:Oxford[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Sophia[/bold] wrote: Seems everyone gets to have a say, except the people who live round there[/p][/quote]Oh don't worry. They will have their say - as will every lobbying "Activist" in Oxford (who tend to live their lives in perpetual fear). Whilst the County Council have clearly promulgated their number one priority in this article - a nice view of Frideswide Square... For genuine rail users these are probably the most important elements:- At least 4 through platforms & 2 bay platforms. Capacity to deal with 2000 passengers arriving simultaneously and switching mode to car, cycle, pedestrian or local transport in the peak Up & down escalators, stairs and lift to every platform. M&S Simply Food ATM x 2 Ticket Machines x 10 "Future proofing" with capacity for 2 underground/adjacent 4-car light rail / subway / tram platforms would be wise too.[/p][/quote]Agreed, plus Oxford is going to become a major interchange station as well as an origin/destination. THe transfer deck and escalators will have to handle interchange movements as well as funnelling people towards exits. Changing passengers will also need to somewhere to sit, shop, eat and drink for let's say up to 60 mins while awaiting a connection, preferably within view of a departure screen at all times. It's quite a tall order for such a constrained site![/p][/quote]Shame nobody thought about building a new station on the sidings at North Hinksey.... yabbadabbadoo256
  • Score: 0

12:26pm Thu 29 May 14

King Joke says...

Even with a Parkway station at New Hinksey you'd still need a city centre station.
Even with a Parkway station at New Hinksey [not North Hinksey] you'd still need a city centre station. King Joke
  • Score: 0

1:28pm Thu 29 May 14

Patrick, Devon says...

King Joke wrote:
Even with a Parkway station at New Hinksey you'd still need a city centre station.
One reason for not relocating to Oxpens put forward by NR was that it would be further from the city centre, along with it being awkward due to the gradient there.

Redeveloping on the existing site and incorporating a proper local transport interchange, plus a commercial element, will be tight, but possible provided the whole thing is integrated with Frideswide Square and Becket St.

Strange then that OCC is going ahead with Frideswide Sq before the masterplan is ready.
[quote][p][bold]King Joke[/bold] wrote: Even with a Parkway station at New Hinksey [not North Hinksey] you'd still need a city centre station.[/p][/quote]One reason for not relocating to Oxpens put forward by NR was that it would be further from the city centre, along with it being awkward due to the gradient there. Redeveloping on the existing site and incorporating a proper local transport interchange, plus a commercial element, will be tight, but possible provided the whole thing is integrated with Frideswide Square and Becket St. Strange then that OCC is going ahead with Frideswide Sq before the masterplan is ready. Patrick, Devon
  • Score: 0

6:53pm Thu 29 May 14

the wizard says...

And while all this is going on, will a provision for a light rail/tram terminus also be incorporated into the design so as to avoid upheaval etc at some later date. Making a statement now of that nature would speed things along in the right direction.

And when is Hudspeth going to show as much interest in the Witney and A40 situation which is worsening by the day, time for him to get himself into action and approve some improvements on an issue that has been on going for decades. I do seem to remember Cameron saying that despite being PM his dedication to his West Oxon voters would not be compromised, obviously spin, as the situation which he said he would improve has only ever got worse. Tens of thousand of man hours lost annually by this debacle and the pollution is none too good either, as usual, nothing has been delivered yet we are still expected to pay our taxes and rates. Service providers by another name they are, shame they don't have constant competitors to provide these services.
And while all this is going on, will a provision for a light rail/tram terminus also be incorporated into the design so as to avoid upheaval etc at some later date. Making a statement now of that nature would speed things along in the right direction. And when is Hudspeth going to show as much interest in the Witney and A40 situation which is worsening by the day, time for him to get himself into action and approve some improvements on an issue that has been on going for decades. I do seem to remember Cameron saying that despite being PM his dedication to his West Oxon voters would not be compromised, obviously spin, as the situation which he said he would improve has only ever got worse. Tens of thousand of man hours lost annually by this debacle and the pollution is none too good either, as usual, nothing has been delivered yet we are still expected to pay our taxes and rates. Service providers by another name they are, shame they don't have constant competitors to provide these services. the wizard
  • Score: 0

10:15pm Thu 29 May 14

Patrick, Devon says...

the wizard wrote:
And while all this is going on, will a provision for a light rail/tram terminus also be incorporated into the design so as to avoid upheaval etc at some later date. Making a statement now of that nature would speed things along in the right direction.

And when is Hudspeth going to show as much interest in the Witney and A40 situation which is worsening by the day, time for him to get himself into action and approve some improvements on an issue that has been on going for decades. I do seem to remember Cameron saying that despite being PM his dedication to his West Oxon voters would not be compromised, obviously spin, as the situation which he said he would improve has only ever got worse. Tens of thousand of man hours lost annually by this debacle and the pollution is none too good either, as usual, nothing has been delivered yet we are still expected to pay our taxes and rates. Service providers by another name they are, shame they don't have constant competitors to provide these services.
The Oxford City Core Strategy of 2010 earmarks a rapid transit route alongside the rail corridoor from Wolvercote to Cowley. I suspect there is a legal requirement to maintain provision for that, but one wouldnt think so from the comments made by leading Councillors.

Perhaps they think a local rail service will perform that role instead, but even with the capacity upgrades planned, I doubt if there will be capacity for a frequent service, which in any case would not provide a link to Headington.

The lack of planning on the A40 route is staggering. Do they think a solution to the area's transport problems, soon to be increased with the planned developments in West Oxon and at Headington, will appear out of thin air?
[quote][p][bold]the wizard[/bold] wrote: And while all this is going on, will a provision for a light rail/tram terminus also be incorporated into the design so as to avoid upheaval etc at some later date. Making a statement now of that nature would speed things along in the right direction. And when is Hudspeth going to show as much interest in the Witney and A40 situation which is worsening by the day, time for him to get himself into action and approve some improvements on an issue that has been on going for decades. I do seem to remember Cameron saying that despite being PM his dedication to his West Oxon voters would not be compromised, obviously spin, as the situation which he said he would improve has only ever got worse. Tens of thousand of man hours lost annually by this debacle and the pollution is none too good either, as usual, nothing has been delivered yet we are still expected to pay our taxes and rates. Service providers by another name they are, shame they don't have constant competitors to provide these services.[/p][/quote]The Oxford City Core Strategy of 2010 earmarks a rapid transit route alongside the rail corridoor from Wolvercote to Cowley. I suspect there is a legal requirement to maintain provision for that, but one wouldnt think so from the comments made by leading Councillors. Perhaps they think a local rail service will perform that role instead, but even with the capacity upgrades planned, I doubt if there will be capacity for a frequent service, which in any case would not provide a link to Headington. The lack of planning on the A40 route is staggering. Do they think a solution to the area's transport problems, soon to be increased with the planned developments in West Oxon and at Headington, will appear out of thin air? Patrick, Devon
  • Score: 1

12:33pm Mon 2 Jun 14

the wizard says...

Patrick, Devon wrote:
the wizard wrote:
And while all this is going on, will a provision for a light rail/tram terminus also be incorporated into the design so as to avoid upheaval etc at some later date. Making a statement now of that nature would speed things along in the right direction.

And when is Hudspeth going to show as much interest in the Witney and A40 situation which is worsening by the day, time for him to get himself into action and approve some improvements on an issue that has been on going for decades. I do seem to remember Cameron saying that despite being PM his dedication to his West Oxon voters would not be compromised, obviously spin, as the situation which he said he would improve has only ever got worse. Tens of thousand of man hours lost annually by this debacle and the pollution is none too good either, as usual, nothing has been delivered yet we are still expected to pay our taxes and rates. Service providers by another name they are, shame they don't have constant competitors to provide these services.
The Oxford City Core Strategy of 2010 earmarks a rapid transit route alongside the rail corridoor from Wolvercote to Cowley. I suspect there is a legal requirement to maintain provision for that, but one wouldnt think so from the comments made by leading Councillors.

Perhaps they think a local rail service will perform that role instead, but even with the capacity upgrades planned, I doubt if there will be capacity for a frequent service, which in any case would not provide a link to Headington.

The lack of planning on the A40 route is staggering. Do they think a solution to the area's transport problems, soon to be increased with the planned developments in West Oxon and at Headington, will appear out of thin air?
Patrick, Well there you are, the problems without solutions put in place first by using experience, foresight and planning will only ever get worse, and yet the likes of Hudspeth all the way up to Cameron promise soooo much and yet deliver soooooo very little. Houses are great as they are another source of revenue via rates and vat on fuel bills etc and income to landlords, but infra structure is a burden as it muddles the balance sheet as a necessary burden and drain on resources. Yet as we all know without a proper transport network in place pollution levels rise as do the frustrations of the users of something which is not fit for purpose. These people need to get their heads out from between their legs and sort out these issues as their empty promises over the last 30 years said they would. A few days of action like they do in France by everybody grid locking a few roads may, just may, bring home the point that the locals are far, far, far from happy with the useless totally inept people we have in charge of these matters and the fact we do not trust them with future projects over the longer term.
[quote][p][bold]Patrick, Devon[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]the wizard[/bold] wrote: And while all this is going on, will a provision for a light rail/tram terminus also be incorporated into the design so as to avoid upheaval etc at some later date. Making a statement now of that nature would speed things along in the right direction. And when is Hudspeth going to show as much interest in the Witney and A40 situation which is worsening by the day, time for him to get himself into action and approve some improvements on an issue that has been on going for decades. I do seem to remember Cameron saying that despite being PM his dedication to his West Oxon voters would not be compromised, obviously spin, as the situation which he said he would improve has only ever got worse. Tens of thousand of man hours lost annually by this debacle and the pollution is none too good either, as usual, nothing has been delivered yet we are still expected to pay our taxes and rates. Service providers by another name they are, shame they don't have constant competitors to provide these services.[/p][/quote]The Oxford City Core Strategy of 2010 earmarks a rapid transit route alongside the rail corridoor from Wolvercote to Cowley. I suspect there is a legal requirement to maintain provision for that, but one wouldnt think so from the comments made by leading Councillors. Perhaps they think a local rail service will perform that role instead, but even with the capacity upgrades planned, I doubt if there will be capacity for a frequent service, which in any case would not provide a link to Headington. The lack of planning on the A40 route is staggering. Do they think a solution to the area's transport problems, soon to be increased with the planned developments in West Oxon and at Headington, will appear out of thin air?[/p][/quote]Patrick, Well there you are, the problems without solutions put in place first by using experience, foresight and planning will only ever get worse, and yet the likes of Hudspeth all the way up to Cameron promise soooo much and yet deliver soooooo very little. Houses are great as they are another source of revenue via rates and vat on fuel bills etc and income to landlords, but infra structure is a burden as it muddles the balance sheet as a necessary burden and drain on resources. Yet as we all know without a proper transport network in place pollution levels rise as do the frustrations of the users of something which is not fit for purpose. These people need to get their heads out from between their legs and sort out these issues as their empty promises over the last 30 years said they would. A few days of action like they do in France by everybody grid locking a few roads may, just may, bring home the point that the locals are far, far, far from happy with the useless totally inept people we have in charge of these matters and the fact we do not trust them with future projects over the longer term. the wizard
  • Score: 0

1:12pm Mon 2 Jun 14

King Joke says...

Hang on, the story tells us that NR are planning for a surge in passenger numbers five years in advance by building a new station, and that Hudspeth is ensuring suitable provision is made to accommodate it, five years before it opens. It sounds as if both are doing the kind of advance planning people are asking for.
Hang on, the story tells us that NR are planning for a surge in passenger numbers five years in advance by building a new station, and that Hudspeth is ensuring suitable provision is made to accommodate it, five years before it opens. It sounds as if both are doing the kind of advance planning people are asking for. King Joke
  • Score: 0

2:46pm Mon 2 Jun 14

Patrick, Devon says...

King Joke wrote:
Hang on, the story tells us that NR are planning for a surge in passenger numbers five years in advance by building a new station, and that Hudspeth is ensuring suitable provision is made to accommodate it, five years before it opens. It sounds as if both are doing the kind of advance planning people are asking for.
With electrification, the Chiltern service and East West Rail there is bound to be a surge in numbers. However, the investment planned is to meet demands for long distance travel and freight. Local stopping services are not the priority, and the rail network around Oxford, even with planned enhancements, will simply not acommodate them, nor is heavy rail the best way of providing them.

A rapid transit network, integrated with rail and bus services, is the way, and should be planned alongside (literally) rail improvements. This is what happens in other developed countries, but isnt happening here.
[quote][p][bold]King Joke[/bold] wrote: Hang on, the story tells us that NR are planning for a surge in passenger numbers five years in advance by building a new station, and that Hudspeth is ensuring suitable provision is made to accommodate it, five years before it opens. It sounds as if both are doing the kind of advance planning people are asking for.[/p][/quote]With electrification, the Chiltern service and East West Rail there is bound to be a surge in numbers. However, the investment planned is to meet demands for long distance travel and freight. Local stopping services are not the priority, and the rail network around Oxford, even with planned enhancements, will simply not acommodate them, nor is heavy rail the best way of providing them. A rapid transit network, integrated with rail and bus services, is the way, and should be planned alongside (literally) rail improvements. This is what happens in other developed countries, but isnt happening here. Patrick, Devon
  • Score: 0

2:51pm Mon 2 Jun 14

King Joke says...

Cool, point taken. I guess what you're saying is we need a RT network to cater of local needs, irrespective of what the railways do to cater for regional and national needs. Fair comment.

We do need trams, just don't get any consultants down from Edinburgh to help us with it...
Cool, point taken. I guess what you're saying is we need a RT network to cater of local needs, irrespective of what the railways do to cater for regional and national needs. Fair comment. We do need trams, just don't get any consultants down from Edinburgh to help us with it... King Joke
  • Score: 0

4:24pm Mon 2 Jun 14

Patrick, Devon says...

King Joke wrote:
Cool, point taken. I guess what you're saying is we need a RT network to cater of local needs, irrespective of what the railways do to cater for regional and national needs. Fair comment.

We do need trams, just don't get any consultants down from Edinburgh to help us with it...
I think Edinburgh is a lesson how not to build a tramway! Plenty of other places where it has happened much better. Guided busways etc are not the answer either.

Around Oxford you have a road network designed for long distance travel, choked with local commuter traffic. The rail network would be the same. The way Oxon is developing - Harwell, Witney, Carterton, Headington etc - there is a huge latent and growing demand for a proper modern network, and it is that which needs to be addressed.
[quote][p][bold]King Joke[/bold] wrote: Cool, point taken. I guess what you're saying is we need a RT network to cater of local needs, irrespective of what the railways do to cater for regional and national needs. Fair comment. We do need trams, just don't get any consultants down from Edinburgh to help us with it...[/p][/quote]I think Edinburgh is a lesson how not to build a tramway! Plenty of other places where it has happened much better. Guided busways etc are not the answer either. Around Oxford you have a road network designed for long distance travel, choked with local commuter traffic. The rail network would be the same. The way Oxon is developing - Harwell, Witney, Carterton, Headington etc - there is a huge latent and growing demand for a proper modern network, and it is that which needs to be addressed. Patrick, Devon
  • Score: 0

4:32pm Mon 2 Jun 14

King Joke says...

Yes, I agree. We need to develop lines like the old ones to Witney, Cowley etc but you can't just shovel the trains or tram-trains into Oxford station which will be busy enough with regional and national traffic.

Feeding them into tram lines as has been done with old commuter lines in Manchester would avoid having to use Oxford station while giving better connectivity to the very centre of the city. You'd have a hell of a fight on your hands though from:

i. the motoring lobby who would not want road space given over to trams
ii. John Lewis and the pedestrianisation lobby who wouldn't want trams in central streets like Queen St, George St etc

Fcvk em, I'd say, but we do live in a democracy!
Yes, I agree. We need to develop lines like the old ones to Witney, Cowley etc but you can't just shovel the trains or tram-trains into Oxford station which will be busy enough with regional and national traffic. Feeding them into tram lines as has been done with old commuter lines in Manchester would avoid having to use Oxford station while giving better connectivity to the very centre of the city. You'd have a hell of a fight on your hands though from: i. the motoring lobby who would not want road space given over to trams ii. John Lewis and the pedestrianisation lobby who wouldn't want trams in central streets like Queen St, George St etc Fcvk em, I'd say, but we do live in a democracy! King Joke
  • Score: 0

6:29pm Mon 2 Jun 14

Patrick, Devon says...

King Joke wrote:
Yes, I agree. We need to develop lines like the old ones to Witney, Cowley etc but you can't just shovel the trains or tram-trains into Oxford station which will be busy enough with regional and national traffic.

Feeding them into tram lines as has been done with old commuter lines in Manchester would avoid having to use Oxford station while giving better connectivity to the very centre of the city. You'd have a hell of a fight on your hands though from:

i. the motoring lobby who would not want road space given over to trams
ii. John Lewis and the pedestrianisation lobby who wouldn't want trams in central streets like Queen St, George St etc

Fcvk em, I'd say, but we do live in a democracy!
Continental cities of a similar nature to Oxford - a historic centre, modern growth, vibrant economy, strategic national importance - have simply built tunnels under the constrained centres.

It would be feasible to build a surface tramway from Oxford Station to St Giles, and thence to Headington across largely open space (via the science area - itself a major traffic generator), if provision is made now. But if that option is closed off at the station and Frideswide Sq, then a tunnel will be the only answer.
[quote][p][bold]King Joke[/bold] wrote: Yes, I agree. We need to develop lines like the old ones to Witney, Cowley etc but you can't just shovel the trains or tram-trains into Oxford station which will be busy enough with regional and national traffic. Feeding them into tram lines as has been done with old commuter lines in Manchester would avoid having to use Oxford station while giving better connectivity to the very centre of the city. You'd have a hell of a fight on your hands though from: i. the motoring lobby who would not want road space given over to trams ii. John Lewis and the pedestrianisation lobby who wouldn't want trams in central streets like Queen St, George St etc Fcvk em, I'd say, but we do live in a democracy![/p][/quote]Continental cities of a similar nature to Oxford - a historic centre, modern growth, vibrant economy, strategic national importance - have simply built tunnels under the constrained centres. It would be feasible to build a surface tramway from Oxford Station to St Giles, and thence to Headington across largely open space (via the science area - itself a major traffic generator), if provision is made now. But if that option is closed off at the station and Frideswide Sq, then a tunnel will be the only answer. Patrick, Devon
  • Score: 0

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